Reaching a Critical Mass: A Roundtable with Black Parliamentarians
In our democracy, a parliamentarian has a duty to represent the interests of all people in a particular constituency or district. But parliamentarians who belong to communities that extend beyond their electoral district often find they assume a secondary responsibility to bring attention to community interests and/or share some common experiences with other parliamentarians who are part of these communities. In this roundtable, Canadian Parliamentary Review Intern Kaitlin Gallant spoke with three Black parliamentarians to discuss their experiences campaigning, as members of legislatures and political parties, and about the value of Blacks caucuses and multiparty organizations such as the Canadian Congress of Black Parliamentarians. *Responses from two separate telephone conversations were compiled into a transcript which was then reviewed and revised by all participants.
Participants: Patrice Barnes, MPP, Tony Ince, MLA, David Shepherd, MLA Moderated by Kaitlin Gallant
Patrice Barnes is MPP for Ajax, Ontario. First elected in 2022, she was appointed Deputy Speaker in 2023. Tony Ince is MLA for Cole Harbour, Nova Scotia. First elected in 2013, he is a former cabinet minister. David Shepherd is MLA for Edmonton-City Centre, Alberta. He was first elected in 2015. Kaitlin Gallant is a former intern for the Canadian Parliamentary Review. She was selected to be part of the 2023-2024 Ontario Legislature Internship Programme.
CPR: What has been your experience campaigning as a Black candidate?
David Shepherd: Campaigning was an interesting and unique circumstance for me. To be candid, at no point when I was thinking of running, or campaigning, or even on the night I was elected, did I stop and think “I’m running as a Black candidate.” It simply didn’t occur to me. I grew up in an environment where I had no connection to Black communities. I spent most of my life not connected to Black communities. It simply was not something I was aware of until after I was elected.
So, after my election, I began to be invited to events with folks in Black communities and I discovered I was only the third Black person ever elected to the Alberta Legislature. I had been starting to learn about Black experiences in the US with the Black Lives Matter movement and those sorts of things. I’d been educating myself, reading a lot from Black journalists and activists, and recognizing there are a lot of folks that look like me but who have had very different experiences than mine. But it was only after my election that it really became a priority for me. I embarked on a period of learning, trying to build those connections and relationships.
Tony Ince: Unlike David, I’ve had a lot of connection with Black organizations and the Black community. I grew up around the corner from Africville. My wife’s family was from Africville. There’s a gentleman, Burnley Rocky Jones, who was one of many mentors to me.
I approached campaigning and going door to door as just an individual. It was only the odd individual who would raise an issue around race. To give you one example, I knocked on the door of a teacher, who was wrestling with terminology. How would she refer to Black students in the class. How would she determine what to call them? Should you call them African Nova Scotians? Should you call them Black? And so on.
It was a conversation that I enjoyed. I said to her: “Well, part of our problem in society, from my perspective, is when we begin to have these conversations people start stammering and stuttering.” They’re not sure what words they could say or what they should say. I said, “I’m an individual. I’m going to tell you. Just say it. If you’re being derogatory, I’ll correct you, let you know, and educate you. But I won’t know where you’re coming from until you open your mouth and just say it.”
What I really noticed while first campaigning was that the main party really didn’t support me in the way that I thought they would have. I don’t think they saw this Black person being able to really affect change, and I wasn’t really getting much support. So, I found myself knocking on doors by myself, often with my wife or one of my children. But the majority of the time I was by myself.
That didn’t deter me, though, because the more I engaged with people at the door, the more I felt I needed to speak my mind and say it as it is. I often would start with the conversation: “I got involved because I got tired of politicians knocking on my door, making promises to me, and telling me all kinds of pie in the sky stuff.” I said to many people at the door: “The only thing I can ever promise you, because I have no idea what goes on down there, is that I’ll work hard for you.” The rest of this is history.
Patrice Barnes: As a Black person, running for the Progressive Conservative Party played an interesting role in my campaign. Most Blacks and newcomers have said they’ve always felt the Liberals or NDP were more welcoming as opposed to the Conservative Party, so that was an additional layer to my campaign. It led to many interesting conversations at the door about culture, identity, and representation, I’m very lucky that my area of Ajax is a very diverse community. Our highest population being South Asian, followed by the Blacks. You’re embraced differently in various cultures. So, I found it was very enlightening for me and a great opportunity for me to connect with my community of Ajax.
I served my community as a trustee for several years before I ran provincially. When you run as a trustee, you represent yourself, your values, your culture, and you have your own opinion. When you’re running provincially, you’re running with a party and with 124 other people. So, you recognize and are conscious of potential ripple effect of the things you do and say.
As a Black person knocking on doors, I was always very cautious to make sure I wasn’t too close to the doors. I did that because sometimes people find it intimidating just seeing a Black person at the door. You had to navigate those parts of campaigning. But outside of that, I had a great team of people supporting me who were excited to be a part of the journey. The campaign was a lot of fun and I was happy to talk to the community and see how I can impact people’s lives and make it better. And that’s why you run. Well, that’s why I ran. It was and continues to be a great journey.
CPR: What is it like being a Black parliamentarian in a predominantly white legislature?
Tony Ince: I found it quite interesting sitting in the legislature. When I was elected, it was the first time in Nova Scotia history that two Black people were elected at the same time. I got swept up in the red tidal wave. I beat the premier of the province – the first time that happened in 130 years. So, I get in there and I have colleagues who are eager to learn and understand the challenges of my community. That gave me a lot of freedom and a lot of leeway to bring issues to the table. I had a premier who also was very open and receptive. He pretty much allowed me to do whatever I wanted when it came to anything to do with the community, for example, the Canadian Congress of Black Parliamentarians. At the same time, there were other levels within the party, within government, who were pushing against the things I was trying to move forward. So, while I had some freedoms, there were a lot of things that were denied to me for whatever reasons.
David Shepherd: It was a process of learning for me. Within the first couple months as a parliamentarian, I started getting invited out to a lot of events with different Black communities. It became very clear how much it meant to them to see someone that looked like them in a position like mine. And one of the most frequent things I would hear when I went to these events is “Wow, we’ve never had an MLA show up here before.”
So, I immediately sat down with my staff and said this is a priority. We will never say no to any event that comes to us from a Black community. That was one of our priorities. I made a point to go out to every celebration of the independence days for all the different African communities. And then, of course, Black History Month. I had never been to a Black History Month event before in my 40 years of life. I had certainly never seen it taught or celebrated in school. So, in 2016, I took it upon myself to sit down and start trying to learn some of the Black history of Alberta. I tried to be very open and honest with those event organizers and with the communities about where I was coming from – what I knew and what I had to learn. Initially, there was a lot of learning.
In 2016, I also then reached out and, for the first time, invited Black leaders to come and meet at the Alberta Legislature. We had two meetings, one with elders from the community and one with youth from the community. Our political community was not engaged with Black communities. They did not exist as a calculation or a factor in the way that people would think about the South Asian community or the Chinese community. It just was not there. Part of my work was engaging those communities and trying to introduce them into our political sphere.
I was fortunate that our caucus, and our government, was receptive to that. They were receptive enough that in 2017, I was able to work with the Premier and our Minister of Culture to have Alberta become the fourth province to officially recognize Black History Month. That was a game changer. We had the first event in the legislature in early February 2017 and more than 300 Black people attended. That was the first time we’ve had that many people from the communities together celebrating. It’s become one of the favourite events at the legislature every year. A lot of the first four years was about that. Communities were very open and receptive. My colleagues were open and receptive. And we’re able to sort of build a lot of those relationships.
In the next four years, moving from government to opposition, it became a bit of a challenge maintaining it. We had, for the first time, two Black MLAs at the same time – me and Minister Kaycee Madu, who was with the United Conservative Party of Alberta. There was an interesting dynamic between the two of us. We were on different sides of the House, so we had points where we agreed and points where we disagreed.
But, certainly, we saw an elevation of the dialogue and visibility of Black communities in the political debate, particularly with the murder of George Floyd in 2020. While it was a tragedy, it provided an incredible opportunity to increase the visibility of the discussion. We did some robust consultation with the Alberta NDP on issues of racism, both overt and systemic, and published a report that eventually led to my bill, the Anti-Racism Act. It dealt with the collection of race-based data and was inspired partly by the work that had been done in Nova Scotia. We took pieces of that along with some of the work that had been done in Ontario on anti-racism.
So, my experience as a Black parliamentarian has been relatively positive even though there are challenges. It has taken a lot of work. I had push a lot of things up the ladder. It was not something that came naturally to our caucus or our party, that awareness. I don’t think it’s something that came naturally to the governing party. When I moved into opposition, I give Minister Madu credit in that he actively pushed some things up the ladder with them. But, sometimes, it only works if you make the argument of political expediency and try to explain why there is a political benefit in doing these things.
Tony Ince: I find the challenge is often our own community. To give you an example, for eight years I was Minister of the Office of African Nova Scotian Affairs. I’m the first Minister to sit in that office for so long. For eight years, at every community event, and with every organization I engaged with, I would say, “Please, we need you folks to be more engaged. I’m in a position to help you to get on agency boards and commissions. You don’t even need experience. Go sit there for a year and just observe what’s going on. The fact that your body is there will remind them to look at things that relate to our community.” For eight years, not one individual took me up on that offer, which was quite frustrating.
That’s why our most recent meeting in Ottawa, with 45 of us coming together, is so important. It’s also important for us to engage and educate the community about the political process, because most have no idea. They figured because I was the Minister, they could come to me, and I would just give them this or that. They didn’t truly understand the process. I often say to people, 80 to 90 per cent of my job is explaining my job. You’ve got people who are calling you, looking for you to solve particular issues that are municipal or federal because they have no idea who does what. Now, with the Canadian Congress of Black Parliamentarians, they can see a mass of us talking to them from different levels of government and trying to educate them.
And, of course, most communities still don’t trust us because they see us as being a part of a system that has left them out.
David Shepherd: Tony is absolutely right. There’s a lack of trust because these are systems that were designed to exclude our communities specifically. So, first of all, we’ve got to work on those systemic issues and try to break those down. But at the same time, our communities are well aware these systems were built to exclude them. They are used to being outside of them. There is the lack of knowledge, understanding, and education that comes from that exclusion, and then there is the lack of trust.
That becomes a dual burden you bear as a Black parliamentarian. On the one hand, you’re trying to take apart parts of the system and make room in the system. At the same time, you’re trying to earn back trust from the community. You’re trying to bring the two together. And that is on top of all of the standard responsibilities that you have as a representative to your broader constituency, community, and whatever ministerial or critic responsibilities you might have.
Patrice Barnes: Overall, I have felt respected and supported since being elected to the Ontario Legislature. I think my additional role as Second Deputy Chair of the whole house (deputy speaker role) has probably helped to support that feeling and my colleagues from all parties have been great to work with.
This is the first year that we have representation in all major parties in the Ontario Legislature. Also, it’s the first time the Progressive Conversative party has a black female minister in cabinet. It’s really empowering and gives a sense of belonging when I share this space with the other Black members of the house.
We do get a chance to connect and share and just support each other. Sometimes it’s in a small way – just the head nod as we pass each other in the halls to indicate “I see you” – and sometimes it’s a longer chat to provide support and encouragement. In my role as Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Education, I had the opportunity to spearhead the roll out of a mandatory Black history curriculum in Grades 7, 8 and 10. It’s something that our community have been advocating for many years; to be able to lead that initiative has really been a fulfilling part of this role.
I agree with both Tony and David – working with our community can be difficult. I work to make myself accessible to everyone, especially members and organizations within our community, to help them navigate the systems and get an understanding of the way government works. It can be challenging at times, and it doesn’t always work out in the way that they want; sometimes that can further erode their trust. But this one was a win, not just for Black students, but for all students.
I have been lucky to have some great mentors, not all of whom are Black, who have been willing to share, guide and advise and that has made it easier. There have been challenges or situations that have been stereotypical, but I don’t dwell on them. I treat everyone with respect until they show me otherwise. Being in this role requires a balance of confidence and resilience to overcome some biases and expectations, but I know the impact being in this role can have on the children that come to Queen’s Park that see someone that looks like them. I am part of their history and so I will continue to strive to make them proud.
CPR: What is the value of Black parliamentary caucuses?
Patrice Barnes: I think there is value in Black caucuses. If you’re Black, no matter what party you’re from, the issues and challenges of the community across Canada are similar or the same. Being able to come together and pick three or four things that we want to champion for Black people across the country, there’s value in that because you come as a unified voice. To be a unified voice is sometimes a very good way to accomplish things.
David Shepherd: This is something I’m just beginning to learn because I am part of a Black caucus for the first time. We elected two more Black MLAs with the Alberta NDP in this last election: Sharif Haji from the Somali community in Edmonton-Decore, and Rhiannon Hoyle in Edmonton-South, who has a Caribbean background. I had begun speaking with them ahead of the election. Now after the election, we’ve begun to have strategic meetings. We just had our first two sets of meetings as a Black caucus with some Black community leaders in Calgary this weekend. I cannot tell you how different those meetings were than the meetings I had when I went as an individual.
People trusted me, but they didn’t necessarily trust our party. In fact, to be candid, that was a particular point of attack that came against me from Mr. Madu and another Black candidate that ran for the United Conservative Party. They said that “When the NDP were in government, they didn’t put David in cabinet. They didn’t elevate Black people. So, it’s obvious that party does not care about Black people now.” That was, frankly, a cheap political attack that was unfortunately divisive for communities.
But it reflects a larger truth. When you are a lone individual, there is less trust. With the three of us, there was a marked difference from those community leaders in their desire to engage ideas, their willingness to work with us, and their level of trust and openness. To have the first Black woman elected to the legislature, Rhiannon brings a whole perspective that I could never bring. Having allies who share the cultural experience and perspectives and who bring some unique ones is a game changer. In many ways, that is what needs to be the goal. Tony, I love that you are working across levels of government as well.
Tony Ince: To go back and talk about the Canadian Congress of Black Parliamentarians, Michael Coteau and I were both Ministers of Culture back in 2015. I went to visit him just as a fellow colleague who was a provincial Minister of Culture. We were having a conversation and I brought with me, as a gift, the book Black Ice [the history of a Black hockey league in Nova Scotia in 1895]. He started glancing through it and he said, “I didn’t know this information. I had no idea!” I shared with him, some of the other bits of information from Nova Scotia.
And then, as we’re talking, he starts Googling. He checks across the country. At that time, I think there were like 15 of us in government, provincially and federally. He said, “You know what? We’ve got critical mass. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could all come together and have a conversation and just share. Because regardless of the party, if we’re walking down the street, all they see is this, our colour, they don’t care what party or who we are.”
I came back to Nova Scotia, spoke to my premier and told him this is what I’d like to do. He said: “Go ahead, Tony, start it.” Just like that. And that’s how it came about. It was a small group. We said, we have to do this in a non-partisan way; our community needs that. Then, we looked at trying to grow this group. What about those of us who are no longer elected? What happens to them? All these conversations are continuing. I was really impressed with the meeting in Ottawa in August because we had a couple of people who were formerly elected show up as guests. There were 45 of us, and for me, it was a dream come true. All different levels, all different parties sitting down and discussing issues of importance with our communities. I’m just overjoyed at the success of the last meeting and I’m looking forward to our future meetings because I can only see it growing.
David Shepherd: I would add one other thing to what Tony said. The value of a Black caucus is also in the internal structure. Rhiannon spoke so glowingly of the experience she had and how supported she felt, particularly because there are no other Black women in the Alberta Legislature. But systemic issues don’t just exist in the broader political systems, they exist in the political parties that were built in those systems. They adopted policies that, whether intentionally or not, acted to exclude our communities. So, there are systems that need to be addressed and pieces that need to be dismantled, or broadened, or modernized to address that exclusion. To do that as a lone individual, is exhausting and it’s nearly impossible to keep up with everything. Having those allies and multiple voices who can help amplify and broaden that conversation, it makes a massive difference.
Patrice Barnes: I agree. And I would add another challenge would be, are you taken seriously and how do you action it if you’re not the party in power? The reality is, you can advocate, but unless you have people that are willing to listen, willing to execute, then you’re only a voice, “that” group. “There they are again. It’s always the Black issue.” That presents its own barrier. So, there’s pros and cons to it. But, as David mentioned, an important value in the Black Caucus is the internal structure to amplify and support Black leaders.
CPR: How can legislatures and political parties be more inclusive for Black parliamentarians?
Patrice Barnes: If you look around Queen’s Park, it reflects a history. But which history? As I walk through the halls of Queen’s Park, I remember coming across a plaque that was donated by “coloured people.” This plaque hangs in the Ontario Legislature. Even though there’s a little bit of me that thought it looks strange, there’s still a piece of me that says, “There’s a bit of my history here.”
We had several Black History Month events in the building this year, as well as the unveiling of the Lincoln Alexander bust, Ontario’s first Black Lieutenant Governor. It was sculpted by a black artist. This was put together by the community supported by the Speaker, so we are starting to further embed our history and tell our lost stories and that’s important. The legislature represents the people and the legislature, as a building, needs to reflect that history. I don’t think that we should rip down statues, because that’s a part of history. We can look at it critically through today’s lens, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. I don’t think erasing it makes the difference. I think erasing it puts us at the risk of repeating it. Instead, give us room to add our voices so we have a full picture of how our country was built. That creates an environment that gives us permission to be ourselves, not as an add on but as an accepted piece of the rich fabric of this country.
David Shepherd: In terms of the legislature, I can’t think of too many things that I have run into at the legislature that I felt were discriminatory. Now, certainly there have been news stories about the incidents of what people have encountered at the Canadian Parliament, where people have faced active discrimination. Black legislators, visitors, others have had experiences of being targeted by security. I have not seen anything like that at the Alberta Legislature from day one. I felt I was respected and treated like any other member.
But regarding resources, absolutely that’s worth thinking about. I’ve had wonderful support from the Speaker’s Office for Black History Month, and I think we’ve seen an increased visibility and consciousness regarding celebrating events and stuff with Black communities.
In terms of parties, as soon as they make a connection with some prominent individual from a Black community, immediately they ask: “Hey, can we get that person to run for us? Can we get that person to be a candidate?” I’ve seen multiple parties doing this without any thought to building trust in a relationship. Why should this successful Black individual step away from the career they have built in the community? Why should they take the credibility they have probably worked so much harder than others in similar positions to get, and loan it to a political party? This is not a consideration that comes to mind.
I was speaking with a prominent Black woman in Calgary who noted that, if she were to step up to run, she is going to face a unique level of discrimination. She’s going to face a unique level of attack. It is going to take more resources. It’s going to take more from her personally. We need to consider that.
Another interesting point that came up in the conversation [at the Canadian Congress of Black Parliamentarians], is that prospective candidates say, “You want me to go out and sell a whole bunch of memberships for your party in order to have the privilege of being a candidate for you?” The question comes up for them: “Am I being used? Are you just using me, inviting me to run so that you can get a bunch of new memberships and fundraising done?” They have no guarantee that after doing all that work, which is more work in these communities than it is in others, that they’re going to get anything out of it in the end.
Tony Ince: I don’t want to repeat anything that David said, but he nailed it on the head. We’ve got 400 years of mistrust in a system. That’s not going to be an easy thing to turn around. Especially since it’s 400 years plus, because it’s still going on today.
Let me share a statement that I’ve often made, and I’ve stood up in the House and I’ve made this statement. I said, “I stand on the shoulders of four or five people who were there before me. Four or five people who were lone wolves. The only difference between them and me, is the fact that I have a few more allies now in the time that I’m in than they ever had.” Thus, I was able to move a few things forward because of those allies. They were alone. Their own parties didn’t even believe in some of the things they were trying to move forward. Regardless of what party you’re looking at, they just saw them, as David said, as the token. The community is not stupid. They can see those things. They read them. They’re very intelligent.
Patrice Barnes: I’m going to say this as a general statement, that doesn’t necessarily apply to everyone. If a party is selecting someone from a racialized community to run, that party has to be purposeful in understanding that person may need extra supports. They may not have the connections and extended network that a candidate from a different demographic may have. They may need to be mentored, and supported on the ways to run a campaign, door knock and, overall, taught how to be a candidate.
The other piece is financial. A lot of parliamentarians tend to be in the latter part of their lives. Politics is often a second career. They might previously have been CEOs or lawyers, or they’re further along in their professional life and they can decide to do this. But when you look at a newcomer who is a first or second generation Canadian, or a young person, how do you support them financially if they need it?
How does the party help them grow a network of supporters that can fundraise? How do you produce money to run a campaign? How do you continue to fundraise throughout those four years to help you to be successful? These are questions political parties need to seriously answer if they are looking to support more Black candidates become parliamentarians.
CPR: Are there any final thoughts you’d like to add?
David Shepherd: The last thing I would say is, when we’re talking about what legislatures can do, what can parties do, I don’t know how much of the role they should be playing in this, but they should be playing some role. If we want to grow more leaders from our communities, support them, build them up and have them be part of these systems, we need richer soil for them to grow in. That means, more of that education and engagement to overcome some of these historical barriers.
Patrice Barnes: I’m truly blessed to hold the position I hold, and I don’t take it a day for granted. I am just always grateful to be able to walk this walk not just for me, but for anybody else that comes after. I think it’s so important that we recognize that we carry such a larger responsibility.
Tony Ince: Unless we’re having uncomfortable conversations, nothing’s going to happen. There needs to be uncomfortable conversations in the broader society, period. And, it is incumbent upon members of our own community to push this agenda and educate. For me, there needs to be more allies who are not nodding their head in silence, but who say out loud, “Yes, we agree,” and really step up and be uncomfortable as they help us push this agenda.